In this episode, Chad Hughes talks with Sandra Dixon, Supervisor of Western Canada Gas at Enbridge and President of the Canadian Association of Land and Energy Professionals (CALEP). Sandra discusses how she came to her role in CALEP in 2019 and what it entails. The conversation looks at the scarcity of resources in terms of new people entering the land industry, how the roles and titles have changed, and the challenge of providing education and awareness about opportunities in the land profession.

Three areas of education are highlighted: awareness, recruitment, and training. Chad and Sandra address the specifics of all three and how CALEP is involved. Sandra addresses the need to change awareness of the industry by adjusting the perception of the roles as being just oil and gas-centric. She also discusses how much of the work is networking and face-to-face relationships, which are not where the younger generations have their strengths due to their greater online focus.

Chad and Sandra examine how potential recruits can come from people making career transitions, the types of former jobs that are a good base for heading into the land industry, the challenges around maintaining and creating higher education training for land professionals, and what people can expect to see from CALEP in the coming year. Sandra shines an insightful light on challenges and potential in the land industry and the role of CALEP within it.

“So yeah, there's definitely been a decline [in association enrollment] and we want to change that. But we have to make ourselves relevant. We have to have the education component put in play. And I would also suggest that we have to be piloting work programs, those types of aspects where we can get people some experience and exposure to what we're doing. I think that's super important.” - Sandra Dixon

About Sandra Dixon:

Sandra is an accomplished Land Management Professional and the Supervisor of the Lands & Right-of-Way Western Canada Operations Team at Enbridge. In her role, she is crucial in delivering leadership, mentorship, and support for land management activities across Western Canada, with specialized expertise in British Columbia land matters. With a strong background in land management, stakeholder engagement and regulatory affairs, Sandra excels in building and maintaining relationships with stakeholders, landowners, government agencies and regulatory bodies.

At Enbridge, Sandra provides expert counsel, leadership, and support to her team of regional Land Agents, overseeing land management activities in Alberta and British Columbia to ensure operational success. She plays a pivotal role in advancing regional core projects and associated operational programs. Additionally, Sandra manages the annual development of community and stakeholder engagement plans and is instrumental in shaping the strategic direction of her operational areas. Her active involvement in planning and development of teams, as well as task groups, underscores her commitment to Enbridge's objectives.

Sandra has consistently demonstrated a strong commitment to volunteering her time and engaging with industry initiatives. Beyond her role at Enbridge, she actively mentors and supports others, contributing to the ongoing exchange of knowledge and fostering professional development. As President of the Canadian Association of Land and Energy Professionals (CALEP), a non-profit professional association for Land Agents in Canada, Sandra plays a pivotal role in public and government relations. She is dedicated to establishing the highest professional and ethical standards for Land Agents, while also promoting education and training to set clear expectations for those who interact with stakeholders. Sandra’s leadership and contributions make her a distinguished figure in her field.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Sandra Dixon |Enbridge / CALEP President: website | linkedin

Chad Hughes welcomes Andrew Fulford, Surface Land Manager of Birchcliff Energy, to the show to talk about Birchcliff’s unique culture and his thirty-plus-year career. Andrew, who got into the industry by going to Olds College in what was then called the Land Agent Program, got offered his role at Birchcliff twelve years ago, and he reflects on changes in his career and the industry while offering advice to newcomers in the surface land business.

Andrew discusses how the always-changing industry offers a lot of opportunity for growth in a career due to the progress and new skill sets required with the shifts. He says it does lead to being a bit of a jack of all trades and includes project management as one of his roles now. One of the things he learned very recently was the role of Indigenous relations when he not only needed to understand the new consultation regulations, but also become immersed in Indigenous history and culture so he could adapt to their way of doing business.

Chad and Andrew talk about company culture and what makes Birchcliff so unique and positive. Andrew highlights the relationships frontline people form with communities and the smooth communication they develop. He reflects on how much things have changed in the industry and how the training now would be substantially different than when he first started. His advice to people looking for a career in the industry is to learn about the whole industry, not just land.

“... when you first get into the surface land business, if you're passionate about it … I say to people, go to where you will learn the most. Go to those. Look for those places where you will gain the most skills and diverse skills. Don't just focus on one. It may not be the best-paying job that you take off the start, but it's probably the one that's where you're going to learn the most, and it's probably going to take you away from home for longer periods of time. I spent a good part of the first part of my career, you know, behind the wheel of a vehicle and sometimes away from home for 1 to 2 weeks at a time… but I'll tell you what. It paid off in spades towards the latter part of my career. And the skills that I built and the understanding that I had about the business when I did that.” - Andrew Fulford

About Andrew Fulford:

Andrew is the Surface Land Manager for Birchcliff Energy, responsible for surface land access, community and stakeholder engagement, indigenous relations and managing a team of 5 surface professionals.

He graduated Olds College in 1986 with a Land Agent diploma and over the next dozen years worked as a consulting landman for several land brokers and a royalty trust company. In the late 90’s he moved “in-house” to the role of Senior Surface Landman for PanCanadian Petroleum, a major exploration and production company which later merged with Alberta Energy Corp. to become into EnCana Corporation. Here he managed a one of the surface land teams focused on Coal Bed Methane development in southern Alberta. In 2012 he moved to his present role at Birchcliff Energy Ltd. an intermediate oil and natural gas company based in Calgary with operations focused on the Montney/Doig resources play in north western Alberta.

With over 35 years in the land industry, he has been involved with a diverse variety of projects across all 4 western provinces including acquisition of linear right of ways for powerlines, natural gas and telecom, wellsites, gathering systems and gas processing facilities, freehold and crown mineral land projects, stakeholder and indigenous relations and crown surface land disposition acquisitions.

He has worked with the Southern Alberta Institute for Technology to help update and develop their Surface Land Management Course which he also taught for a number of years and has also developed and taught short courses for CAPL and CAPLA (now CALEP and LEMAC) over the past 15 years.

Additionally, he has volunteered on various industry committee which presently include the CALEP – Field Acquisition Management Committee and the Olds College, Surface Land Management Program - Industry Advisory Committee.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Andrew Fulford |Surface Land Manager, Birchcliff Energy: website | linkedin

Chad Hughes invites James Thurston, a longtime friend and experienced land agent, to the show to discuss insights on their generation and its alignment with the industry. James Thurston reflects on his journey, emphasizing the importance of networking and building relationships during his time in the land agent program. He shares how chance and curiosity led him to the field, working on the Alliance pipeline and later in various locations across Western Canada.

James explores the unique characteristics of his and Chad’s generation, shaped by a lack of parental presence during childhood, fostering resilience, self-sufficiency, and a nomadic mindset. He highlights the generation's ability to adapt to industry changes, particularly during the boom in coal bed methane, and how they navigated through subsequent challenges like the 2008 financial crisis and the fracking revolution. Despite the positive traits, James acknowledges the downsides, such as reluctance to ask for help and potential loneliness.

Chad and James touch on the evolution of the land agent role, from individual well projects to centralized pad locations and a shift to Crown land. James emphasizes the importance of adaptability and problem-solving in the ever-changing industry. Their conversation reveals the unique characteristics of their generation and its impact on their successful navigation through the dynamic landscape of land agency.

“... if I didn't know the answer, I really made a conscious effort to seek it out. And it was a lot harder back then. As you remember, we didn't have the internet like we do now. We didn't have access to information, but I did have a large network of friends from Olds. And, you know, I leaned on that. … we had to all kind of learn from each other, you know, there was a lot of talk. There was a lot of consensus. There was a lot of sitting at a table and working things out and bouncing ideas off each other and really being open to that idea that not every problem has a simple solution.” - James Thurston

About James Thurston:

For nearly 23 years, James has journeyed through Western Canada acquiring land and overseeing large-scale acquisitions.

His path started in Camrose, Alberta, where he joined a small but busy land broker. Over the course of five years, he dedicated himself to acquiring hundreds of upstream projects. It was a time of growth and development, both personally and professionally. But when the call of opportunity beckoned, James found himself in Calgary. There, he took on the role of an in-house landman at Penn West overseeing large-scale drilling programs in West Central Alberta. As the company underwent transitions, James recognized the need for a new path and that journey brought him to Shell in 2014. He’s been able to leverage his skills and knowledge and enjoy a successful career at Shell during an ever-changing time.

James is also a proud husband and father of four young children who keep him on his feet and have helped him grow as a person and as a project manager and landman.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

James Thurston | Discipline Lead, Surface Land, Shell Canada: website | linkedin

Host Chad Hughes welcomes Blandon Granger, Supervisor of Real Estate Services for the Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD), to the show. Blandon has been in the energy industry at SMUD for the past seventeen years and supervises asset management and complex acquisitions. He talks with Chad about the impacts of EV charging and urban development on his role.

Blandon explains that SMUD has a “very aggressive” zero carbon plan and by 2030 wants all their energy to be from clean sources. He talks about how SMUD approaches that goal by developing themselves as well as partnering with developers with similar goals. Renewable energy and green initiative projects come with their own challenges that Blandon describes for Chad.

Chad and Blandon discuss how the real estate development deals are made, how SMUD is a public agency with an elected board of directors, how the green energy shift comes with decarbonization and the impacts of urban and residential growth on how his department operates. EV charging especially has come with its own challenges and Blandon addresses this and more with Chad in this eye-opening interview.

“So, you know, a big concern, I think, anywhere is wiping out [agriculture] lands for these solar projects. Agriculture is a big customer for us. I mean, you know, we've got agricultural customers, it's a part of our heritage in the valley here. I don't think SMUD really wants to be going out there and just decimating significant farmlands and so forth. So the thought is you would bring in compatible type of AG uses. So what we've seen so far is mainly grazing. Sheep are great. They don't bother or destroy the facilities.” - Blandon Granger

About Blandon Granger:

At SMUD, Blandon Granger manages all real estate activities of the nation’s sixth-largest publicly owned electric utility. With an annual budget of $1.6 billion, SMUD is a leader in renewable technologies and developing energy projects. Blandon’s group provides services for acquisition, management and disposition of all land rights necessary to operate an electrical utility with generation, transmission, distribution, retail, and administrative facilities. Blandon has also served on the City of Roseville Public Utilities Commission since 2012 and is responsible to the city council for recommendations on policies concerning evaluation, operations, and compliance with state and federal rules and regulations relating to the city's utilities within the city limits. Blandon has achieved the International Right of Way Association's (IRWA) Senior Agent (SR/WA) designation and serves on IRWA's International Electric and Utilities Committee and is the past chair of the Asset Management Committee.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Blandon Granger | Supervisor of Real Estate Services at SMUD: website | linkedin

Host Chad Hughes welcomes Jennifer Tidmarsh, Vice President of Indigenous Relations & Partnerships with Ontario Power Generation, to the show. Jennifer talks about the development of small modular reactors in the nuclear space and the challenges surrounding presenting those solutions to the community.

Jennifer explains some of the public perceptions around nuclear power that have been shaped by events like Three Mile Island, Fukushima, and Chernobyl, and even pop culture references like the nuclear power plant in The Simpsons. Her work involves a lot of education around changing those perceptions and explaining the new initiatives in place for nuclear waste management.

Chad and Jennifer discuss the Indigenous community's concerns about the storage and handling of nuclear waste, specific facts about nuclear waste, the complex regulatory process for it, and the value of nuclear energy for the future. Jennifer sheds light on the environmental assessments that go into nuclear power generation and how the OPG works to alleviate negative perceptions of nuclear overall and educate the public on safeties in place.

“But really the perception has been we want more information about nuclear as a whole, not just those little snippets of, okay, here's the permit we need for this, for the reactor. It's where does nuclear fit into the Ontario grid, and why are you doing this? So we've spent a lot of time really talking about, you know, pathways to decarbonization, which was a report that was put out by the IESO. And you know what, the fact that we need generation and why do we need generation and what's the plan going forward. And so that's been, you know, us doing a lot of that groundwork. And we have had pushback. You know, I can't sugarcoat it all, right?” - Jennifer Tidmarsh

About Jennifer Tidmarsh:

With a strong background in the energy sector, Jennifer has worked with various organizations, associations, regulated and unregulated businesses, Indigenous communities, governments, and ministerial departments. Prior to becoming the Vice President of Indigenous Relations and Partnerships at Ontario Power Generation, Jennifer was the President of Transmission in Canada for NextEra Energy, the largest renewables developer in North America.

In addition to business development in Canada, Jennifer also led the development and construction of the East West Tie transmission project in Northwestern Ontario, which went into service in March 2022. The East West Tie project is proud to have an equity partner in six First Nations communities, as well as training and employing a large Indigenous workforce in the region.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Jennifer Tidmarsh | Vice President, Indigenous Relations & Partnerships: website | linkedin | opg instagram

Host Chad Hughes welcomes Pablo Gutiérrez, Managing Director of O’Gorman&Hagerman professional services firm, to the show to talk about what it’s like to acquire land access and engage with the public in Mexico. O’Gorman&Hagerman started in corporate law but moved to provide agrarian services which is where they now specialize.

Pablo explains that Mexico has public and private property, just like the US and Canada, but they also have ejidos and communities which are social property mainly in rural areas which are under agrarian law. He explains how different states have different regulations for the various property types and what it’s like to navigate the complex system of authorities governing land rights.

Chad and Pablo discuss the complexities of the differing information systems mapping each property type, the process required to assess routes and gain access, and how he and his firm would go about appraising and negotiating compensation. Pablo shares a lot of information about the Mexican right of way system and describes the kind of development with the most activity there. This episode sheds a lot of light on the differences and also similarities between our system and that of Mexico.

“... safety is one of our main concerns as a company. It's a very tough one to solve because you don't actually know who to trust. And in each community, you don't know at the onset who's there. We have a team of social experts that through these interviews, try to understand what's happening on the field, who's there, who has interests, who are the leaders, what are they doing if there is organized crime there, and at what level? What do they control if they have contact with the lands or not? So we try to know where we're going. But there are many things that are not apparent, that you cannot see. And that's one, I would say, main risk. And the other is we just have many roads and many areas in Mexico that that are just dangerous at some hours or times or, you know, that you don't want to be on the wrong moment at the wrong time” - Pablo Gutiérrez

About Pablo Gutiérrez:

Pablo Gutiérrez de la Peza. Lawyer, MBA and Managing Partner of O’Gorman&Hagerman, a medium-sized law and professional services firm specializing in Lands, Permits and Social Licenses for infrastructure projects in Mexico. Pablo leads a team of high-performance multidisciplinary teams that have successfully acquired the Right of Way for some of the most complex and challenging projects in Mexico. He is a member of the IRWA International Committee.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Pablo Gutiérrez | Managing Director at O’Gorman&Hagerman: website | linkedin | email

Host Chad Hughes welcomes Robert McCallum, President of McCallum Environmental, to the show. Robert has been working in the environmental consulting industry for over 25 years and he specifically brings his experience in working across varied Canadian provincial jurisdictions to the conversation.

Robert is a professional biologist registered in Alberta and though he started his career in oil and gas, in 2003 he was pulled into a renewable energy project and has been working in the renewable space since. His company is called into projects to do environmental assessment work; looking at birds, wetlands, watercourses, and land use habitat.

Chad and Robert discuss how Robert’s experience in the practical side of the industry helps him communicate the regulatory processes to clients, how the regulatory boards differ from province to province, the lengthy time frames involved in obtaining permitting approvals, and how to balance project and client needs against environmental requirements. Robert’s insight sheds light on how provincial regulations are the same in spirit but very different in process and execution, something to always consider when working across jurisdictions.

“And you can't really take the approach that one thing is more important than the other or one thing is just going to be a token effort at the end of this and we can just move forward with it. So you really need to have it all lined up in the beginning and then you can check them off. Oh yeah, that's not going to be applicable. We don't need to worry about it. We've had the Department of National Defense come back and say that's going to interfere with our radars and no, you can't have turbines there. Now, the Department of National Defense doesn't have the authority to say you can't have radars there. But when the regulatory agency hears the Department of National Defense doesn't want turbines, that holds a lot of weight” - Robert McCallum

About Robert McCallum:

Robert has been working in the regulatory consulting industry and has worked throughout Canada with a variety of industries and people for over 25 years. He has learned that no matter the industry or location, Project Management is about people. Working as a team, having fun, and enjoying the accomplishment of a successful project.

He has extensive project management experience in an owner and consulting environment and he understands and can articulate technical, business and project management functions associated with project development and execution. Robert understands typical owner-company project sanctioning / funding cycles and business drivers. He has a demonstrated ability to adjust Project Management approaches to meet the requirements of projects with varying scopes, complexity, risk, constraints, etc. while understanding the implications of process variance. He also has extensive planning, regulatory, construction and commissioning planning and execution experience.

What sets Robert apart is both his responsiveness and ability to bring a big-picture approach to all the assessments he is part of. This comes from working on projects through assessment, permitting, construction monitoring, operations monitoring, and reclamation.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Robert McCallum | Project Management, Environmental Consulting and Assessment, President at McCallum Environmental Ltd: website | linkedin | email

Chad Hughes is joined by Senior Real Estate Infrastructure Advisor Gordon MacNair. Gordon has spent time with the RWA and worked across more than six countries. He shares advice along with the similarities and differences between the jurisdictions.

Gordon worked in the BC Ministry of Highways and later for Ontario Hydro, among other companies in his career, which has given him great experience in acquiring land for major land assemblies. It was when he was working for the City of Ottawa that he became heavily involved with the International Railway Association as a volunteer before moving up to become the international president. In his presidential capacity, he has worked alongside people from the UK, Australia, South Africa, Nigeria, Mexico, the US, and Canada.

Chad and Gordon discuss the similarities in the industry that exist across different countries and how the work is handled. Gordon also explains the significant differences between the varied jurisdictions, with a not insignificant difference being in terminology. Gordon shares which differences he sees as positives that he’d like to see adopted elsewhere, differing safety and risk situations, and some key lessons he has learned that he imparts as solid advice to those looking to similarly work internationally.

“In the past, whenever I think about land assembly, I think you're putting together land for subdivisions or it's for commercial development, industrial development, residential development or whatever. But a lot of countries, especially the UK as well as Australia, they refer to land assembly in terms of you're putting projects together for your infrastructure real estate, whether it's the highways or whether it's the hydro lines or transmission lines, whatever the case may be. So again, a little nuance there with regards to the difference when you're talking about terminology.” - Gordon MacNair

About Gordon MacNair:

Gordon E. MacNair is a Senior Real Estate Infrastructure Advisor employed with MacNair Consulting Inc. His former position was with the City of Ottawa as the Director of the Corporate Real Estate Office where his team oversaw all real estate matters for the City of Ottawa. He is also a certified lecturer for the IRWA and the AIC and has published numerous articles on infrastructure real estate matters. Gord served as the International President of the IRWA and is currently serving as the Chair of the International Relations Committee. Mr. MacNair has taught courses and seminars on infrastructure real estate issues throughout Canada and the United States as well as Australia, South Africa, and the UK.

Episode Clarification Notes:

1. Title clarification: Gordon was the Real Estate Manager, not Property Manager as stated. He started off as a Property Agent, then was promoted to Real Estate Manager.
2. Job clarification: Gordon served as the COO (Chief Operating Officer) of Ottawa Community Lands Development Corporation, not with the COO as stated.
3. Andrea Carolan clarification: Gordon worked with Andrea, not for her as stated.
4. Book clarification: A book was mentioned as being by Dr. James McKellar but James is not a Dr (PhD), he is a Professor. The book is by Professor James McKellar. Gordon served as the COO (Chief Operating Officer) of Ottawa Community Lands Development Corporation, not with the COO as stated.

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Chad Hughes | CEO, Entrepreneurial Leader, Author: website |linkedin

Gordon MacNair | Senior Real Estate Infrastructure Advisor at MacNair Consulting Inc: linkedin