In this part one of two conversation, Renee Swanson and Jerry Wise delve into the complexities of narcissism and the concept of self-differentiation. Jerry shares his extensive experience in family systems therapy and explains how self-differentiation allows individuals to grow into their true selves without absorbing the toxicity of others. They discuss the loss of self often experienced by those raised in narcissistic families, the internal messages that keep individuals stuck, and the distinctions between healthy and unhealthy guilt and shame. The conversation emphasizes the importance of personal growth and healing in overcoming the effects of narcissism.

Takeaways

• Self-differentiation is crucial for personal growth.
• Narcissistic families often hinder the development of a true self.
• Healing involves getting rid of family programming. Shame and guilt can be healthy or unhealthy.
• It's important to separate true feelings from system feelings.
• You can maintain relationships with narcissistic individuals by understanding your own identity.
• Self-love is essential for healing.
• Many feelings of unworthiness stem from family dysfunction.
• Understanding the difference between guilt types is vital for emotional health.
• You are not responsible for the programming you received from your family.

What happens when the fairy tale was never a fairy tale to begin with?

In this powerful episode, Renee Swanson is joined by Andrea, the candid and courageous voice behind the hit podcast How Not to Suck at Divorce. Andrea doesn’t just share her story—she lays it all out. The red flags she ignored. The justifications she clung to. The slow unraveling of her identity. The physical collapse that finally forced her to confront the truth.

Together, Renee and Andrea dive deep into:

• The invisible trauma of covert emotional abuse

• How your childhood shapes the dysfunction you tolerate

• The cost of trying to “make it work” while losing yourself

• Why the hardest part isn’t leaving—it’s everything that comes after

• The importance of creating a plan... and what happens when it all falls apart

Andrea’s brutal honesty, dark humor, and heartfelt wisdom remind us that healing starts with bravery—and that no matter how broken you feel, there is a way through.

💬 “Your life will never get better unless you get brave.” — Andrea

This episode is a must-listen for anyone feeling stuck, scared, or unsure about whether change is even possible. You’re not alone. And your future can look nothing like your past.

👉 Listen now—and get ready to feel seen.
👉 Then hop over to How Not to Suck at Divorce for even more practical tools and fierce support.

In this episode, we’re diving into the conversations I wish I could have had with the covert narcissist in my life. The words I rehearsed but never said. The truths I buried for the sake of “keeping the peace.” The sarcasm I bit back. The boundaries I swallowed. All of it. Because sometimes, the only way to make sense of the madness that is covert narcissistic abuse is to talk it out—even if it’s only in your own head.

We’re pulling back the curtain on:

• The emotional minefield of everyday life with a covert narcissist
• The way gaslighting turns simple moments into emotional warfare
• The mental gymnastics of the “circular conversation”
• The rage that gets disguised as “just a rough day”
• The slow erosion of your voice when you’re always managing their emotions

This isn’t just about venting. It’s about reclaiming the space to name what happened, to validate the version of reality you know you experienced, and to remind you that you’re not crazy. You’re not too sensitive. You’re not imagining it. You’re waking up.

So grab your tea, your journal, or just a quiet moment in your car, and let’s process together. Because your voice matters. Even if it’s shaking. Even if it’s only just starting to come back.

✨ Leave this episode knowing:
You don’t have to keep tapdancing around someone else’s dysfunction to be worthy of love, safety, or peace.
You get to stop shrinking.
You get to stop rehearsing.
You get to heal.

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🔗 Want support on your healing journey?
Your story matters, and you deserve to be heard without judgment. If you’re ready to take the next step toward healing, check out my coaching services at www.covertnarcissism.com. And don’t forget to subscribe for more empowering episodes like this one.

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