It’s a privilege to be in conversation with Diane Langberg today, a psychologist who has spent over 50 years working with victims of abuse, particularly within the church. Langberg has seen firsthand the devastating impact when the very institutions meant to protect and nurture God's people end up harming them instead. Diane believes that the solution lies not in better policies or procedures, but in a deeper reorientation towards Christ-likeness - a radical commitment to love, truth, and obedience that must permeate every corner of the church. She argues that too often, we've made the institution, the building, the reputation the priority, rather than faithfully following our true head, Jesus. She pulls no punches, recounting harrowing stories of abuse covered up in the name of protecting the church's image. But she also offers a vision of hope - that by facing these painful truths head-on, by listening to the 'least of these,' the church can be transformed to truly reflect the heart of the Savior it claims to follow. This is a challenging, sobering, and ultimately hopeful conversation that I believe every Christian leader needs to engage with. Langberg's wisdom and experience offer a clarion call for the church to get back to its biblical foundations - not as an institution to defend, but as the living, breathing body of Christ.

Diane Langberg (PhD, Temple University) is an internationally recognized psychologist with more than 50 years of experience. She chaired the advisory board of the American Association of Christian Counselors until 2021 and cofounded the Global Trauma Recovery Institute, which trains therapists to assist trauma victims across the world. She is the founder of Langberg, Monroe & Associates, which provides counseling services in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania, and consults with Christian organizations around the world. Langberg is the author of seven books, including Redeeming Power. Her books have been translated into 11 languages.

Diane's Book:
When the Church Harm's God's People

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In our conversation today we talk about some of the deepest challenges facing the church today. Our guest is Mike Cosper, author of the new book 'The Church in Dark Times,' and he's bringing this incredible framework from the philosopher Hannah Arendt to help us understand the dynamics at play. What Cosper lays out is how the church, much like broader society, has become susceptible to the lure of ideology - these seductive stories that promise meaning and purpose, but ultimately lead us astray. He traces this back to the unbundling of identity that's happened in modernity, where we've lost those deep roots and sense of transcendence that used to anchor us. And the way Cosper unpacks Arendt's insights on the 'banality of evil' is extremely helpful. The idea that the greatest horrors can emerge not from some monstrous, radical evil, but from this hollow, empty shell of a person - that's a profoundly unsettling concept with huge implications. But Cosper doesn't just diagnose the problem. He also points us towards practices of solitude, thinking, and storytelling that can help us resist these ideological forces and recover a more rooted, transcendent vision of what it means to be the church. It's a conversation that I think will really challenge and inspire anyone who cares about the future of Christianity in our time.

Mike Cosper has been creating music, radio shows, and podcasts for more than 20 years. He produced and hosted The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast and is director of podcasts at Christianity Today. He now cohosts a weekly podcast called The Bulletin. Cosper also leads cohorts for church leaders and is the author of four books, including Recapturing the Wonder. He and his family live in Louisville, Kentucky.

Mike's Book:
The Church in Dark Times

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In this conversation we get to the heart of the divisions and fractures we're seeing in our society and in the church. Heather Gorman and Mark Nelson, the authors of the book "Lunchroom Theology," paint a vivid picture of the polarization all around us - the way we sort ourselves into different tables and groups, often suspicious or distrustful of those who aren't like us. But what's so compelling is how Heather and Mark point us back to the radical, subversive vision of Jesus - the way he broke down barriers, invited the unexpected to his table, and called his followers to a radical unity. They unpack how the early church struggled with this, but also found creative, improvisational ways to live it out. Ultimately, this is a conversation about recovering the imagination to see the world differently, to tell better stories, and to participate in the restoration that Jesus inaugurated. It's a call to intellectual humility, to curiosity about those who are different from us, and to a faith that is rooted in the mystery and wonder of God, not just a set of propositions. Heather and Mark offer a compelling alternative to the fear-driven, tribal mentality that so often dominates our public discourse. It's a vision of community, of neighbor-love, of pushing tables together - even when it's messy and uncomfortable. This is the kind of conversation we need more of. Join us at the table.

Mark Nelson and Heather Gorman co-authored Lunchroom Theology: Pushing Tables Together in a Fractured World.

Mark is the executive director of Three Rivers Collaborative and a coauthor of Reframation: Seeing God, People, and Mission Through Reenchanted Frames with Alan Hirsch. Mark is the founding pastor of Crossings, a faith community in Knoxville, Tennessee, where he served for fifteen years.

Heather (PhD, Baylor University) is Professor of New Testament at Johnson University and author of Interweaving Innocence: A Rhetorical Analysis of Luke’s Passion Narrative as well as numerous journal articles and essays on the Gospels, Acts, ancient rhetoric, and reception history.

Heather & Mark's Book:
Lunchroom Theology

Heather's Recommendation:
The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory

Mark's Recommendation:
A Burning in my Bones

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