Never thought you would have an abortion? That's exactly what Wisconsin mom and maternal health advocate Megan Kling believed until she became pregnant with her third much wanted and planned child.

Megan courageously shares her deeply personal story of terminating two pregnancies for medical reasons. She discusses the profound impact of abortion restrictions, the challenges of navigating medical insurance, and the importance of advocating for safer maternal healthcare. Megan's story highlights the complexities behind abortion legislation, its real-life effects on everyday moms, the inadequacy of exceptions for the life of the mother, and how, if you can become pregnant, abortion laws impact you. She also addresses the concept of "babies born alive from botched abortions," how she coped with losing two much wanted children, and why she had to leave her state to access evidence based health care. Along the way, she shares how she traveled to a larger hospital to VBAC her second child with unsupportive providers as well as her subsequent plans to VBAC a second time at her local rural, community hospital, and how the June 2024 presidential debate propelled her participation in a political ad. Tune in to hear her powerful narrative that sheds light on why empathetic and evidence-based healthcare is crucial for all women.

00:00 Welcome to Episode 18!

03:29 Seeking Guests: Level 1 Hospitals That Offer VBAC

04:21 Meet Megan!

05:44 Why Share Her Story

07:07 If You Can Become Pregnant, Abortion Restrictions Can Impact You

11:18 First Pregnancy and Cesarean

13:14 No Mention of VBAC or Increased Risks After Cesarean

14:11 Pregnant Again, But Rural Hospital Says, "No VBACs"

17:32 VBAC Calculator Says 38%

18:54 Free VBAC Resources

19:48 "...I Guess We'll Let You Labor Anyway"

23:00 Third Pregnancy, Returns to Rural Hospital for Second VBAC

23:41 What Happens If I Decline a Cesarean?

25:47 Patients Are Not Obligated To Follow Hospital Policy

26:43 There Is Something Very Wrong

29:35 The Diagnosis

31:59 What Are The Abortion Laws In Wisconsin?

35:39 "Born Alive From Botched Abortions"

37:11 Pregnancy Is Too Complex To Legislate

38:02 How She Coped With Her Son's Passing

39:06 Ready To Try Again

40:04 Pregnant With Plans to VBAC at Community Hospital

43:06 And It Happens Again

44:09 Can't Access The Medications She Needs Due to Fear Surrounding Abortion Laws

47:09 "If I Had Not Experienced This, I Would've Never Known To Ask This Question"

48:14 Her Fourth Child's Birth

48:58 Umbilical Cord Abnormality

51:30 Why Did She Need To Leave The State?

52:32 How Abortion Bans Impact Health Care For All

55:33 Want to Learn More About VBAC?

56:53 Insurance May Not Cover Abortion Care (Even When Medically Indicated)

59:54 The Healthcare Gap Planned Parenthood Fills

01:01:29 Can You Get Pregnant? Abortion Laws Can Impact You.

01:03:09 What Has All This Media Exposure Been Like?

01:04:43 Agreeing To Be In A Political Ad

01:06:15 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes

01:09:15 Listen To The Voice Screaming Inside You

01:12:37 How She Has Grown

01:14:25 Advice For Women Pregnant With A Non-Viable Pregnancy

01:15:18 What She Wishes She Knew At The Beginning

01:16:45 The Ripple Effect Of Her Pregnancies

01:17:50 How She Engages With Healthcare Now

01:18:44 Jen's Experience With Misinformation & Pelvic Prolapse

01:20:40 Abortion Bans Do Not Care About The Life Of The Mother

01:23:32 Unintended Consequences & Abortion Bans

01:24:33 Make Your Voice Heard

01:25:12 Women's Health Is Inherently Political

01:26:31 Our Summer Hiatus, See You In The Fall

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should...

Confusion and fear over lawsuits drives health care in the US and even more so within obstetrics and midwifery. In the midst of defensive medicine as default, many clinicians miss the one decision that provides ultimate litigation protection.

Hermine Hayes-Klein is single handedly changing the landscape relative to litigation within maternal health care. An informed consent expert and international civil and human rights attorney, she specializes in the abuse of women and birthing people by the maternal health system.

We will discuss:

• the cognitive disconnect among healthcare providers regarding informed consent during pregnancy and childbirth
• legal cases that illustrate widespread rights violations
• her recent $1.73 million jury verdict
• the legal and ethical mandates that protect pregnant women's rights
• the role of lawyers in enforcing these rights
• conventional wisdom like "you'll never be sued for a cesarean" and "liability concerns makes us do it"
• how doctors will be held accountable for not respecting patient rights
• why "birth can't be planned" is insulting
• how juries recognize trauma as an injury that matters
• why clinicians should support women's choices even if it scares them

Additionally, Jen talks about her upcoming VBAC training for the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health and answers a reader's question about prior uterine dehiscence and future uterine rupture risk.

00:00 Welcome To Episode 17!

02:07 Next VBAC Facts® Training

03:58 Reader Question: Prior Uterine Dehiscence

11:23 Telemedicine VBAC Consults

12:44 Introducing Hermine Hayes-Klein

14:06 The Violation of Informed Consent

17:34 "You'll Never Be Sued For Doing a Cesarean" And Other Myths

18:57 Perverse Liability Incentives

20:12 VBAC Resources

21:06 Doctors Will Be Held Accountable For Not Respecting Client's Rights

21:42 Rinat Dray's Forced Cesarean

25:33 $1.73 Million Dollar Judgement

26:39 Cognitive Disconnect in Maternity Care

31:18 "Birth Can't Be Planned" Is Insulting

32:11 Sample Birth Plan Language

32:31 Hooked Up & Induced, No Medical Reason

33:15 Running, Sobbing, Sleepwalking

33:44 Diagnosed with "Adjustment Disorder" Instead of PTSD

34:07 "The Kind of Abuse That Happens To Women Every Day"

35:00 "The Baby's Healthy, Why Are We Even Here?"

35:49 Babies Need Their Mothers To Be Healthy

36:11 Juries Recognize Trauma As An Injury That Matters

36:50 Hold Doctors Accountable For Doing What The Law Requires

36:59 Next Case Challenges, "You Are Not Allowed"

39:12 "The Very Real Risks of Cesarean Are Dumped Onto The Birthing Patient"

39:46 Birth Trauma Not About Mode of Delivery

40:22 Who is Liable for Complications?

41:17 "Liability Makes Us Do It" Is A Lie

41:42 VBAC Facts Courses

45:06 Should We "Go Slow?" Are We "There Yet?"

46:26 The Law of Informed Consent Means...

46:56 "Keep Telling Them That They Have To Strap Down For The Belt"

48:26 What Violating Informed Consent Looks Like

49:46 Bodily Autonomy "Goes Both Ways?"

51:15 Let's Be Clear About Maternal Death

52:33 News Articles When Women Die During Childbirth, Often, It's Cesarean

53:30 We Are Pro Evidence Based Care and Informed Consent

55:21 OBGYNs Should Support Patient Decisions, Even If It Scares Them

57:01 When An OB Realized Her Informed Consent Process Was Coercive

58:24 OB's Testimony Regarding Informed Consent

01:00:32 Women and Birthing People Are The Captain Of The Ship

01:01:13 Rights Exist Even In Rural Hospitals

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to

Want to change hospital policy, VBAC ban, placenta policy, or otherwise? Barbara Stratton is your gal.

In this interview, Barbara reflects back on over 20 years of activism and shares her biggest tips to changing hospital policy as well as what first time parents wish they knew.

She shares insights on speaking to the media, planning a rally, searching for the perfect VBAC plaintiff as well as the secret to activism.

The discussion also includes:

• how Medicare/Medicaid said hospitals cannot enforce VBAC bans,
• caution for hospital based childbirth classes
• as well as birth centers inside hospitals, and
• why she created her Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set!

Plus Jen shares:

• her upcoming speaking engagement with the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health,
• reader Katelyn's experience with the VBAC calculator, and
• observations from VBAC Facts'® first month on TikTok including
• why mothers shouldn't always "listen to your doctor" and
• the privilege embedded in the statement "find another provider/hospital who is supportive of VBAC."

All this and more in episode 16 of The VBAC Facts® Podcast!

01:55 Upcoming Events & News

03:53 Reader Katelyn's Experience with the VBAC Calculator

07:16 TikTok: "Listen to Your Doctor!"

16:01 Anonymous, Disrespectful, and Full of Disdain

18:21 Showing Up on Social Media

19:47 Concerns About Litigation

27:21 The Bait & Switch

31:31 Why "Find Another Hospital" Is So Hard

34:39 Meet Barbara Stratton

35:20 Birth Words Poetry Magnet Set

37:04 Her Cesarean Poem

40:24 Her Journey to Birth Activism

45:33 Finding Post-Cesarean Support

46:57 Learns About VBAC Bans

48:02 Planning Her First VBAC Ban Rally

55:07 Fighting the VBAC Ban

55:58 First VBAC Ban Reversed!

56:20 Woman Wants VBA2C, Declines Third Cesarean

57:52 Maryland Attorney General: "Generally it is not legal to section a woman against her consent"

59:34 Resources for Fighting VBAC Bans

01:00:43 Goal: To Reverse All VBAC Bans

01:04:17 Hospitals Cannot Enforce VBAC Bans

01:09:28 The Secret to Activism

01:15:50 Work with Barbara 1:1

01:16:49 Speaking Even When Your Voice Shakes at the NIH VBAC Conference

01:19:02 Changing Hospital Placenta Policy

01:21:16 Examples of In-Hospital Advocacy

01:22:44 Biggest Issue in Birth Activism: The Elusive First Time Mother

01:24:58 Mothers: "I Wish I Had Known..."

01:32:28 Most Successful VBAC Ban Reversal Strategies

01:35:00 A Forced Cesarean

01:44:47 The Idea of Fault

01:47:21 VBAC Planning Tips

01:52:00 Hospital Based Childbirth Classes

01:55:14 Searching for the Perfect VBAC Plaintiff

01:56:11 Denied VBAC a Week Before She Was Due

01:56:44 Physician Preference Drives VBAC Ban Reversal

02:00:31 Advice for Birth Professionals

02:04:39 Key Differences in Birth Centers

02:07:19 Advice for Parents

02:09:14 Mutual Appreciation ❤️

02:12:29 VBAC Bait & Switch

Have a comment or question for the podcast? Want to suggest a guest we should interview or a topic we should discuss? Go to https://vbacfacts.com/podcast to give us your feedback!

• The Truth About VBAC™ for Families | VBAC Facts® Course for Parents
• Schedule a consulting call with Barbara Stratton
• Only two hospitals in state ban VBAC, Nov 27, 2005 | Archives | fredericknewspost.com