In this episode, historian Daniel Hummel joins me to discuss the fascinating rise and decline of dispensationalism, a theological movement deeply embedded in American evangelicalism. Daniel shares his personal journey growing up in a dispensationalist environment, exploring its roots with John Nelson Darby, its influence post-Civil War, and its widespread popularity through media like the Left Behind series. This conversation delves into dispensationalism’s impacts on evangelical views regarding end-times, Israel, biblical interpretation, and societal engagement. Daniel provides valuable insights into how anxieties, cultural shifts, and media have reshaped evangelical priorities and engagement today. So join us to discover how our beliefs about the future shape our actions and commitments in the present, and how interpreting scripture continues to influence contemporary Christian life.

Daniel G. Hummel (PhD, University of Wisconsin-Madison) is the director of the Lumen Center in Madison, WI and a research fellow in the History Department at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. He is the author of The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism: How the Evangelical Battle Over the End Times Shaped a Nation (Eerdmans, 2023).

Daniel's Book:

The Rise and Fall of Dispensationalism

Daniel's Recommendations:

Self Made

On the Incarnation

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What happens when the gospel you were handed no longer makes sense of the pain, beauty, or complexity of the world you’re actually living in? In this conversation, I sit down with Nicholas McDonald, pastor and author of The Light in Our Eyes, to explore the tensions between disillusionment and hope, escape and embodiment, cynicism and renewal. Nicholas brings a pastor’s heart, a theologian’s depth, and the honesty of someone who’s wrestled with real questions and has found the freedom, beauty, and love that Jesus can bring. We talk about what 40 million people walking away from the church actually means, why so many are rejecting not Jesus, but a culture of fear and power, and how the recovery of ancient practices, communal faith, and a more embodied gospel could help us reimagine the way forward. From Zechariah’s silence to Jim Henson’s Muppets, from dispensational escape theology to communion as resistance - this conversation covers a lot of ground, and all of it matters. So join us as we find the light of Christ has been present all along.

Nicholas McDonald is the Associate Pastor at Redeemer Presbyterian church in central Indianapolis and has served in ministry for over fifteen years. His previous positions have included roles in youth ministry and four years as the Campus Minister of Reformed University Fellowship at the University of Missouri. McDonald received his degree from Gordon Conwell Seminary and studied creative writing at Oxford University. He's the author of Faker, and the forthcoming book "The Light in Our Eyes: Rediscovering the Love, Beauty and Freedom of Jesus in an Age of Disillusionment". He lives in Indianapolis with his wife and their three children.

Nicholas' Book:

The Light in Our Eyes

Nicholas' Recommendation:

The Meaning of Singleness

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What happens when the institutions we’ve trusted start to crumble and we realize they were never meant to carry the weight we gave them? Today, I’m joined by Angie Ward. She invites us into a deep reimagining of the Church, not just as a building or an organization, but as a Spirit-formed people living on mission together. Angie has spent decades in both church and parachurch worlds, and she brings hard-won wisdom and clarity to a question many of us are asking right now: what is the Church supposed to be? We talk about the historical split between church and parachurch, what it would look like to move from siloed excellence to shared mission, and why this cultural moment might be the perfect time to rethink everything - not out of panic, but out of trust. We discuss institutional collapse, missional ecosystems, scarcity vs. abundance, and how to step into new paradigms when the old ones stop working. If you’re sensing the shaking in the foundations and wondering what’s next for the people of God, join us as we imagine an ecosystem of missional extensions.

Angie Ward (PhD, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary) is director of the Doctor of Ministry program and associate professor of leadership and ministry at Denver Seminary. She is the author of Uncharted Leadership: 20 Case Studies to Help Ministry Leaders Adapt to Uncertainty and I Am a Leader: When Women Discover the Joy of Their Calling. Angie has over thirty-five years of leadership experience in church, nonprofit, and higher education ministry. A sportswriter in a previous life, Angie loves running, basketball, humor, and movies. She and her pastor-husband live in Denver. They have two grown sons and one very spoiled beagle.

Angie's Book:

Beyond Church and Parachurch

Angie's Recommendations:

Good Authority

Competing Against Luck

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