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Since Ian Barbour’s pioneering work in the mid-1960s, there has been a lively dialogue between spirituality and many scientific disciplines, including physics, biology, neuroscience, and genetics. By comparison, there has been relatively little dialogue between spirituality and mathematics. In this episode, Richard explores this emerging intersection with Dr. Sarah Voss, a mathematician and ordained pastor in the Unitarian Universalist Church. They also discuss her book, A Math Mystic’s Guide to Creative Spirituality.

Dr. Voss has dedicated much of her life to nurturing an emerging dialogue between math and spirituality. One of her most important contributions has been the development of “Mathaphors,” a word that she coined. Mathaphors occur when someone uses a law or insight from mathematics as a metaphor to understand some aspect of spirituality. For instance, Voss uses Snell’s rule—which describes how light bends, or refracts, when it passes from one transparent medium to another—as a Mathaphor to describe the human spirit when it experiences redemption.

In addition to Mathaphors, Richard and Sarah discuss how to affirm and learn from different religions in a pluralistic society. They also reflect on mysticism as a contributing component of the mathematics and spirituality interface.

Books Cited:

Sarah Voss, Math Mystic’s guide to Creative Spirituality, Wipf & Stock, Eugene, Oregon, 2024.

John Hick, An Interpretation of Religion: Human Response to the Transcendent, Yale University Press, New Haven, Connecticut, 1989.

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Richard discusses the different ways ethics can inform the science and spirituality relationship. To lay the groundwork for his exploration of ethics in science and spirituality, Richard begins by drawing two very important distinctions: First, he discusses the distinction between ethics and morality. Second, he explains the distinction between secular or philosophical ethics versus religious or spiritual ethics.

From there, Richard proposes a Fivefold typology for relating religious or spiritual ethics with science. The five categories are:

1. Separation. In this category, spiritual ethics and science are kept completely separate from one another.
2. Independent Incorporation. Here, persons of faith reach ethical conclusions based solely on their interpretation of their religious tradition’s teachings and sacred scriptures concerning a particular issue. However, after reaching their ethical position, they will then invoke scientific observation and research to buttress their ethical conclusion or make it more accessible to others who do not share the same religious perspective. The key here is that their ethical position is predetermined before they draw from science.
3. Scientifically Informed. In this category, religious ethics incorporates scientific research and data into its ethical reflection. That is, scientific discoveries actually shape and influence the reflections, deliberations, and conclusions of spiritual ethics.
4. Mutually Informing. In this category, spiritual ethics and science mutually inform one another at the applied level. Spiritual ethics and science mutually shape and inform one another on particular ethical questions. Two examples of mutually informing are: (1) What ethical obligations would human space explorers owe to non-sentient extraterrestrial life, if it were discovered in our solar system? and (2) What are the ethical considerations for the use of the new genetic technology, CRISPR?
5. Foundation Integration. This category is at a deeper level than “Mutually Informing.” In this category, spiritual ethics and science mutually inform one another at the meta- or foundational level. Science and spiritual ethics will be used to inform the foundational assumptions, building blocks, and paradigms of one another. This mutual informing frequently occurs around the question, “What does it mean to be human?”

For Further Information:

• “We need to talk about human genome editing,” (Editorial) 8 January 2025,Nature 637, 252 (2025).
• Exploring the Origin, Extent, and Future of Life: Philosophical, Theological and Ethical Perspectives, ed. Connie Bertka, Cambridge, England: Cambridge University Press, 2009. (This volume contains a collection of essays written by NASA scientists, as well as religious ethicists and theologians, concerning the obligations human space explorers may owe to non-sentient extraterrestrial life, if it is discovered in our Solar System.

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In this solo episode, Richard Randolph begins by acknowledging the disastrous misunderstanding prevalent in society that science and spirituality are somehow locked in a bitter winner-take-all conflict for supremacy. Against this false myth, Richard asserts that, on the contrary, most religions and spiritualities have historically supported and nurtured science as an important human endeavor. He provides evidence supporting this claim from Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American perspectives, and Christianity.

Richard claims that science can actually deepen and strengthen our religious faith or spirituality. He provides three illustrations of this claim, based upon his personal experiences in life. These three illustrations draw from scientific cosmology, ornithology, and quantum physics. He concludes by suggesting that people from other spiritual backgrounds may also find that the sciences can actually deepen and strengthen their spiritualities, as well.

For further information:

Gregory Cajete, Native Science, Natural Laws of Interdependence, Santa Fe, New Mexico: Clear Light Books, 2000.

Shawn Wilson, Research Is Ceremony, Indigenous Research Methods, Fernwood Publishing, 2008.

For more information about Sandhill cranes, check out the Rowe Sanctuary website at: https://rowe.audubon.org/.

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In this solo episode, Richard Randolph does a deep dive into our understanding of spirituality. He acknowledges that people have different spiritualities. Yet at the same time, he believes that these diverse spiritualities all share a common core of seven attributes, which are essential for authentic spirituality. These seven attributes are:

1. Openness
2. Being part of something larger than oneself
3. Loving kindness
4. Forgiveness
5. Humility
6. Gratitude
7. Disciplined Spiritual Practice

To share your thoughts on this episode, and all episodes, email him at richard@scienceandspirituality.org.

References of Books Quoted.

• Lisa Miller, The Awakened Brain, The Psychology of Spirituality Penguin Books, 2021. (The quotation is found on page 8.)
• Shawn Wilson, Research Is Ceremony, Indigenous Research Methods, Fernwood Publishing, 2008. (The quotation is found on page 91.)

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Robert J. Russell is a very unique individual and highly qualified in the area of science and spirituality. Now retired, he has a Ph.D. in Physics from the University of California, Santa Cruz and he is an ordained pastor in the United Church of Christ.

In this interview, Richard Randolph and Robert Russell discuss Christian theodicy--or, The Problem of Evil--and the theological challenge it poses for Christians. Here's the challenge: "How do we reconcile the presence of Evil in the world, if we believe that God is all-loving and all-knowing and all-powerful?"

They also discuss current research into Big Bang Cosmology and prevailing cosmological scenarios concerning the destiny of the universe. Then, they look at the Christian concept of God the Creator. Christian doctrine holds that God created the universe out of nothing and that God continues as an active Creator in the present.

Following the work of British cosmologist John Polkinghorne, Bob and Richard explore the possibility that God as Creator is also preparing to redeem all of Creation at the eschaton, or end time. This line of theological thought offers a unique pathway that Christians may follow as they try to reconcile the Problem of Evil in the world.

In the interview, Bob also explains his proposal for “creative mutual interaction.” This methodology proposes different paths that researchers in science and theology may use to interact with each other.

For more information,
Robert J. Russell, Cosmology: From Alpha to Omega, Fortress Press, 2008. (See especially Chapter 10 for Bob’s methodological proposal for “Creative Mutual Interaction” (CMI).

John Polkinghorne, The Faith of a Physicist, Princeton University Press, 1994.
Check out the website for The Center for Theology and the Natural Sciences at
https://www.ctns.org/.

(Please note that a longer, video version of this interview is available online on the Science and
Spirituality YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@ScienceSpiritualityInstitue.)

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In this episode, Richard explores the ethical challenges and spiritual questions raised by the new CRISPR technology with Dr. Marnie Gelbart, who is Director of Programs at the Harvard Medical School’s Personal Genetics Education & Dialogue Program (PGED).

Richard began with an overview of CRISPR technology, emphasizing its precision and potential cost-effectiveness. He emphasized that, in germline applications, CRISPR could potentially allow humans to control their own evolution. Richard also described the potential benefits of CRISPR in agriculture, medicine, and the environment.

He discussed the recent success of Colossal Biosciences, which used the CRISPR technology to revive the dire wolf, a species that has been extinct for over 10,000 years. Although they were not able to re-create in totality the dire wolf genome, the scientists were able to create a close phenotype—that is, a close physical approximation.

Marnie described her journey as a scientist, which ultimately led to her current position with PGED. She then described the recent approval of a CRISPR technology to treat the sickle cell disorder.

Marnie and Richard discussed the ethical challenges and spiritual questions raised by CRISPR. She emphasized the importance of fair access to CRISPR treatments and the need to build trust in the biomedical enterprise. We also discussed the philosophical and spiritual questions raised by CRISPR, especially the risk of undermining the respect and dignity owed human persons and the potential risk for the commodification of reproduction and children. We agreed on the importance of diverse perspectives on these challenges and questions, especially recognizing the partnership between science and spiritual perspectives.

For more information:

• Check out the PGED website at www.pged.org. (Be sure to download your free copy PGED’s new card game, “Share your stance on personal genetics.”
• Jennifer Doudna and Samuel Sternberg, A Crack in Creation, Gene Editing and the Unthinkable Power to Control Evolution, Boston: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2017. (Dr. Doudna was co-winner of the 2020 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, awarded for her pioneering work on CRISPR.)
• The quotation from Nature in its 8 January 2025 Editorial reads in part, “The past few decades have shown that new technologies are being developed ahead of conversations on their ethics or social or environmental impacts. From the atomic bomb to artificial intelligence, discussions of risks, benefits, safety, regulations and transparency have had to play catch-up…[This] mistake should not be repeated[with genetic engineering].”

On Dire Wolves, see:

• D. T. Max, “Life After Death, The genetics startup that resurrected the dire wolf” in The New Yorker, 14 April 2025, pp. 30-39, 41.
• Andrea Thompson, “Did Scientists Actually De-Extinct the Dire Wolf?” in Scientific American, 8 April 2025, accessed online at https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-dire-wolf-isnt-back-but-heres-what-de-extinction-tech-can-actually-do/, 16 April 2025.

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Richard’s guest for this episode is Dr. Hermina Nedelescu, a neuroscientist at the Scripps Institute. Hermina is a third-generation scientist from Romania. Her current research focuses on neural circuits and their role in emotional responses to drug use and sexual abuse. Hermina is also an Orthodox Christian, currently pursuing her Masters degree at the Center for Theology and Natural Sciences in Berkeley.

In our conversation, Hermina noted that the word, “soul,” was initially a pre-Christian terms that was later adopted into Christian language. Instead of “soul,” neuroscientists more often use the terms, “mind” or “consciousness,” which are ongoing areas of neuroscience research. Hermina stressed the importance of bridging the gap between science and theology, especially in the area of consciousness research. She elaborated, emphasizing the need for dialogue between people of faith and those with a science background in order to better understand the non-physical expressions of human beings.

Hermina views the “soul” as a metaphor for human experiences and ideas that are fundamental aspects of a particular individual. When asked about the idea of the soul existing beyond physical life, Hermina suggested that experiences—and accomplishments—frequently outlive individuals.

Richard and Hermina believe it is important to integrate the spiritual and physical aspects of human experience. Hermina cited Fraser Watts’ research on “embodied spirituality,” which she has found helpful in her own theological thinking.

The conversation concludes with a discussion of special contributions that Orthodox Christianity can make to our understanding of the human soul. In a recent book chapter, Hermina focused on the Orthodox concept of theosis, the idea that human beings have the capacity to become God. Although not universally accepted by all Christians, Richard pointed out that theosis deeply resonates with the Wesleyan notion of sanctification and growing in holiness.

For more information, check out the following resources suggested by Hermina:

Hermina Nedelescu, “Intelligence Amplification and the Inner Life of the Soul” in The Promise and Peril of AI and IA: New Technology Meets Religion, Theology, and Ethics, edited by Ted Peters, published in Agathon: A Journal of Ethics and Value in the Mordern World, Vol 10/2025, pp. 353-364. (Published ATF Theology, Adelaide, 2025.)

Fraser Watter, A Plea for Embodied Spirituality: The Role of the Body in Religion, London: SCM Press, 2021.

Dumitru Staniloae, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology: The Experience of God, Vol. 1: Revelation and Knowledge of the Triune God, Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 1998.

Christof Koch, https://alleninstitute.org/news/exploring-the-minds-mysteries-with-christof-koch/

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In this episode, Richard talks with Ted Peters about UFOs as a cultural phenomenon. A Lutheran theologian, Ted Peters has been a central figure in the long-standing dialogue among scientists, philosophers, and theologians. He has a long-standing interest in UFOs—now called UAPs (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena)—dating back to his childhood.

Although many of us tend to dismiss UAP believers as kooks, Ted stresses that they tend to take science and technology very seriously. We also noted the publication of an article in 2017 in The New York Times, which has contributed to more serious academic investigation into UAPs.

At the same time, Ted thinks that UAP believers may elevate science and technology too much, seeing them as the only means of saving society from self-destruction. The logic goes like this, if earthly science and technology cannot provide salvation, then perhaps an advanced science and technology from another planet will save us.

Since the 12th century, thinkers have debated whether the discovery of intelligent extraterrestrial life would undermine—perhaps even destroy—traditional religions. Ted did extensive surveying on this question. He discovered that most religious people, regardless of tradition—Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.—do not see the prospect of extraterrestrial intelligence as a challenge to their faith.

Our discussion included the decline in public trust for science and technology. He emphasized the need for religious people to support scientists and defend evidence-based science. He also highlighted the battle between good, evidence-based science versus bad, “alternative” science that is not evidence-based. At the same time, Ted asserted that most people continue to trust good, evidence-based science. He noted that even the anti-vaccine movement grew out of an article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal 25 years ago. Unfortunately, the article’s conclusions were deeply flawed and the journal subsequently retracted it. But, at the point, the anti-vaccine movement had already gathered its own momentum.

At the end of our interview, Ted stressed the difference between UAPs and the legitimate discussions in Astrobiology concerning the ethical and theological implications that would arise, if extraterrestrial life is discovered.

For further information, check out these sources.

Follow Ted’s blog, “The Voice of Public Theology,” on Substack, www.tedp.substack.com/

Ted’s book, UFOs: God's Chariots?: Spirituality, Ancient Aliens, and Religious Yearnings in the Age of Extraterrestrials, published by Weiser, 2014.

Helene Cooper, Ralph Blumenthal, Leslie Kean, “Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious UFO Program,” The New York Times, 16 December 2017.