In this episode, host Amri Johnson explores why many DEI efforts have failed to deliver sustainable change and offers a principle-centered framework that thrives even in challenging political climates.

Key Discussion Points:

- Why the "Chicken Little" mentality has weakened DEI's position

- The three keys to effective inclusion: accessibility, actionability, and alignment

- How anti-fragile organizations use inclusion as a competitive advantage

- Why both proponents and opponents of DEI have "hijacked" the conversation

- The difference between practitioners with "skin in the game" versus opportunists

- Moving beyond deficit-oriented approaches to create thriving workplaces

🔥 Standout Quote:

"Metaphorically, when the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay. Those who are hobbyist cooks are more likely to move to a place they can be more comfortable and hope the heat dissipates." [00:17:57]

Resources Mentioned:

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

[00:01:00] - The concept of "so-called DEI" and why this framing matters

[00:03:00] - Making DEI accessible, actionable, and aligned with purpose

[00:05:56] - Anti-fragile organizations: bouncing back stronger from challenges

[00:07:31] - How DEI has been hijacked by both supporters and opponents

[00:09:40] - The power of principles over ideology in the DEI conversation

[00:13:42] - Chicken Little and DEI

[00:16:44] - Why many activists disappear when leadership is most needed

[00:17:57] - "When the kitchen gets hot, the chefs stay"

[00:19:39] - How DEI became associated with deficit-oriented approaches

[00:22:00] - Highlighting practitioners still doing meaningful inclusion work

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, Howard Ross draws on four decades of DEI experience to offer wisdom in today's polarized climate. Howard, who brought me into the DEI field years ago, discusses how today's backlash fits into historical patterns and provides strategic guidance for practitioners navigating political headwinds.

Key Discussion Points:

- The shift from a "bell curve society" to a "dumbbell curve society"

- Distinguishing between performative, symbolic, and transformational DEI work

- Why activism and organizational change require different skillsets

- Strategic approaches to continuing inclusion work in challenging environments

- Finding hope in historical patterns of social progress

- Seeing humanity across political divides

🔥 Standout Quote:

"We've gone from a Bell curve society where most people are kind of in the middle... to a dumbbell curve society where everything's on the end and nothing's in the middle. And the notion of working with somebody across the aisle is considered pretty much by both sides to be betrayal." - Howard Ross

About Our Guest:

Howard Ross is a lifelong social justice advocate and pioneer in the field of DEI work. As founder of Cook Ross and author of influential books including "Everyday Bias," "ReInventing Diversity," and "Our Search for Belonging," Howard has consulted with hundreds of organizations worldwide. At 74, he describes himself as "rewired not retired" and continues to be an influential voice in the field. Howard is currently working on a third edition of "Everyday Bias" with his son Jake, focusing on how AI and social media are influenced by bias.

Resources Mentioned:

Everyday Bias by Howard Ross

IDEAS Generation - An organization for younger DEI practitioners co-founded by Dan Egol, a former Cook Ross employee.

The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin - Mentioned by Howard as a transformative book that changed his worldview when he read it in 1966.

Time Stamps:

[00:04:00] - Howard's background in civil rights work and how his family's Holocaust experience shaped him

[00:08:30] - The concept of "dumbbell curve society" and its impact on DEI work

[00:11:45] - The dual nature of DEI backlash: legitimate critique and politically motivated attacks

[00:13:50] - The three levels of DEI work: cosmetic, performative, and symbolic

[00:15:30] - The critical difference between activism and organizational change

[00:33:00] - Thinking strategically versus emotionally about DEI work

[00:39:00] - Finding hope in the historical patterns of progress and retrenchment

[00:44:00] - The importance of seeing humanity in those with different political views

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.

In this episode, host Amri Johnson challenges us to examine how we put ourselves and others into boxes—especially in the context of identity and inclusion within DEI work. Amri explores the shortcomings of both extreme pro-DEI and anti-DEI positions, revealing how both ends of the spectrum ultimately restrict true inclusion.

Key Discussion Points:

- Three types of boxes that shape our identities

- Why binary thinking in DEI work leads to ineffective outcomes

- The "anti-racist" versus "not racist" framework

- How today's anti-DEI backlash mirrors the problematic dynamics of extreme DEI approaches from 2020

- Creating organizational cultures based on universal principles like dignity, respect, and interdependence

- Why intellectual honesty matters more than superficial niceness

🔥 Standout Quotes:

"Many home runs in the DEI space, in the anti-racist space, in the social justice space that were hit since 2020 did not win games. In fact, they're creating the opposite effect where others are trying to win a similar game in a very different direction."

Resources Mentioned:

- Reconstructing Inclusion S1E6: What is Race Abolition?: Illuminating Racialization’s Complexity with Dr. Subrena Smith and Dr. David Livingstone Smith

"Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You" - Book co-authored by Jason Reynolds and Ibram X. Kendi that explores the history of racist ideas in America.

Peter Senge's Definition of Leadership - "Leadership is the capacity for a human community to shape its future."

Join our free EMERGENT Inclusion Framework virtual event. This isn't another discussion about group identities, allyship, and injustice. While those things have their place, the focus on symptoms rather than diving into the complexity of systems have not unlocked organizational value as practitioners and supporters have hoped for them to. Whether you're a skeptic or champion, your voice matters in this conversation.

Time Stamps:

01:00 - The concept of boxes in identity and inclusion

02:00 - The three types of boxes that define our identity

04:00 - How the dynamics between DEI proponents and opponents mirror each other

06:30 - The baseball analogy: anti-racist vs. not racist

08:30 - Strategic approaches to inclusion vs. binary thinking

10:50 - The current political climate and its impact on DEI

13:30 - Self-censoring across different contexts

15:00 - Creating organizational culture beyond superficial niceness

17:10 - The danger of overcorrection in DEI discourse

18:00 - Final reflections on transcending boxes

➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of DEI.