What if healing didn’t have to be a solo journey?

In this episode of Divergent States, host 3L1T3 sits down with Dr. Anne Wagner, clinical psychologist, researcher, and founder of the Remedy Centre in Toronto, to explore how MDMA-assisted psychotherapy is transforming PTSD treatment by working with couples, not just individuals. From groundbreaking clinical trials to the lived reality of dyadic integration, Anne shares what she’s learning at the cutting edge of relational healing.

This conversation goes deep: into trauma, intimacy, conflict, neurodivergence, and how thinking "psychedelically" may just change everything, even outside the medicine space.

🎧 Plus: updates from Psychedelic Science 2025, upcoming guests like Leonard Pickard and Reggie Watts, and why the future of therapy might come in pairs.

🔑 Key Takeaways:

• Couples Therapy with MDMA is groundbreaking: 5 of 6 couples in the pilot no longer met PTSD criteria.
• Dyadic healing is multidimensional: it's not just about one partner’s trauma but transforming the relationship itself.
• Integration as a couple is complex, but powerful: shared experiences provide a unique scaffolding for long-term growth.
• CPT + MDMA shows promise: combining established PTSD therapies with psychedelic medicine could reshape treatment models.
• Ethical training is non-negotiable: Anne cautions against unqualified practitioners marketing “psychedelic couples therapy.”
• Neurodivergence and CPTSD are viable focuses: MDMA appears uniquely helpful for communication and emotional access.

⏱️ Chapters:

00:00 – Intro: Live from Denver, Psychedelic Science 2025
02:45 – Meet Dr. Anne Wagner: Psychedelics, Trauma, and Relational Healing
04:30 – Why Work with Couples? MDMA as a Relational Catalyst
10:10 – Pilot Study Insights: Communication, Intimacy, and Outcomes
15:00 – Surprising Session Dynamics & Therapist Lessons
17:50 – CPT vs. CBCT: Comparing Therapeutic Models
23:30 – Behind the Science: Building Independent MDMA Trials
26:00 – Previewing Anne’s Talks at PS25
29:05 – Debating Evidence-Based Therapy in Psychedelic Work
30:57 – Defining Dyadic Integration
35:00 – Neurodivergence, CPTSD & the Double Empathy Problem
41:45 – Future of MDMA for Relationships Beyond PTSD
45:50 – Guardrails & Ethical Concerns in Dyadic Psychedelic Work
49:30 – Training Needs for Future Couples Practitioners
51:15 – What Still Stands in the Way?
54:00 – Anne’s “Cosmic Red Carpet” into the Field
55:53 – Most Unexpected Lesson from the Work
58:00 – How to Get Involved or Learn More
01:03:42 – Outro + What's Next: Pickard, Strauss, Austin & More

Music by Flintwick

Special Thanks to our Macrodosers and Heroic Dosers on Patreon, Super D and Lucy!

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